January 25th, 2010

Police can kill you – fact!

Posted in The Job - General, Videos by 200

Welcome to another in my Police Fact-f’ile series in which I aim to enlighten you as to the inner workings of the modern UK Police Service.

Robert Haines, a 41-year-old armed robber & father of three was shot dead by police in October 2006 when he was part of an armed gang who raided a building society in New Romney.

Whilst running from the scene he had to misfortune to bump into a group of more skillful people with guns, who happened to be from the Met & had the gang under surveillance. CCTV footage showed Haines threatening a security guard with a gun. He had stolen £105,000 cash from the guard.

A police officer told an inquest this week that he heard Haines fire a shotgun so, fearing for his & his colleagues lives, he shot & killed the robber. The inquest ruled that Haines was lawfully killed & an IPCC investigation also found no wrong-doing by police. The IPCC said: “The officer was responding to a clear threat to his and others’ life when he discharged his gun. The decision making and planning during the operation was also subjected to review and it was found to be professional throughout.

“We concluded any arrest before the robbery would more than likely not have gathered sufficient evidence to charge, and the decision to intervene as he entered the car park provided the best opportunity to safely control a dynamic and potentially dangerous situation.

Which is good news for those officers involved, although one wonders why it takes more than three years to come to the conclusion.

Haines’ brother, Burt, wasn’t in agreement with police actions, saying: “I think he could have been wounded. To shoot him dead, I think is completely wrong.”

Perhaps Burt watches too much YouTube.

In the real world, if you take a gun to work, & look like you might use it, be prepared to be shot dead. Best perhaps, to advise the family first, so that they understand what might happen to you.

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  1. Pc A Hunn says:

    Occpational hazard for an armed robber you would think. One down far too many to go. Well done E19 hope the inquest was not too stressful for you.

    January 26th, 2010 at 03:38

  2. Stonehead says:

    Interesting that the BBC continues to describe Haines as an “alleged armed robber” and a “robbery suspect”. An inquest has found he was lawfully killed during an armed robbery, he was clearly on CCTV doing the robbery and his accomplices were all convicted , but the BBC continues to give him the benefit of the doubt.

    And yes, it’s daft that it has taken three years to reach the conclusion that he was lawfully killed.

    January 26th, 2010 at 08:04

  3. Stressedoutcop says:

    That WAS a great shot – a couple of “‘s amiss and his gonads were goners. Great video.

    January 26th, 2010 at 08:17

  4. Hogday says:

    I was also irritated by the Beeb, as per Stonehead’s comments. They seem to have conveniently confused the word `alleged` with `attempted`. The latter being punishable as if the full offence were committed, but for the intervention. And as for a 3 year wait in the face of the bleeding obvious? If a cop shooter can be awarded £16k by the European Court of Human Rights because his parole was unnecessarily delayed, then so should the police officers who had to wait 3 years to be officially exonerated.

    January 26th, 2010 at 10:22

  5. Hogday says:

    Not wishing to diminish the sniper shot, which is not just about hitting the target but also about timing, safe background etc (a round from a sniper rifle can kill at up to 3 miles), but at 50 yards that pistol would have filled the scope. As for the three rounds into the villain, its whatever it takes to stop the threat from being a threat. The fact that there were other officers so deployed, yet only one fired, suggests a highly disciplined team with strictly adhered to limits of exploitation. Also, in the UK, baton rounds have been used for some considerable time to prevent people from causing harm to themselves, rather than the use of hv bullets, but that’s not to say that lethal force isn’t there, standing over the baton gunner, on aim. It is as exact a science as it can be, but the commodity involved is the unpredictable human, who never attends the briefing, which means the outcome is one that can never be guaranteed and the scope for comments and criticism from armchair critics like me is huge.

    January 26th, 2010 at 10:42

  6. bender the robot says:

    I cant help think what the headlines would have been if the robbers had shot one of the building society employees- when we had clear intelligence that the raid was to take place- as to the comment about best evidence- I would have thought that known armed robbers together in a particular place -armed- would have been enough to put them away.

    Also, to have stopped members of the public from facing an armed threat- for us to get best evidence? well risky.

    January 26th, 2010 at 13:23

  7. Tony F says:

    Anyone who goes armed, or apparently armed, deserves all they get.

    Good shot by the sniper in the vid, but has been said, the pistol would have filled his sights at that range. We used to shoot over iron sites over greater ranges and hit similar sized targets. Mid you, an SLR wouldn’t have just removed the pistol from his hand…..

    January 26th, 2010 at 17:48

  8. joe says:

    Hi ho – John Wayne can shoot the gun out of the bad guy’s hand; in the westerns they can choose to shoot to wound.

    Real life – it is bloody difficult to hit a target (particulary under stress and/or with a handgun)so you aim for the biggest bit (the torso) you seek to “put them down” so they can’t hurt you or anyone else in the vicinity (again hit the torso where you’ve got heart lungs etc.) and you use multiple shots to ensure they are “put down” (the human body particularly if on drugs or drink or even just fueled up with adrenalin and/or testosterone can continue to function even after receiving fatal wounds that’s why the US army adopted the .45 colt and the British the .455 for knock down power after having lots of their soldiers killed by “natives” shot dead with smaller calibre weapons but who had enough left to take out their killers!). Finally a hit in this area will probably be fatal but that’s the only choice if you want to render an unpredicatable dangerous person incapable of harming you or other people.

    Take a gun to a crime – face the consequences and don’t complain if the guy on the ground can’t match the urealistic expectations engendered by Hollywood.

    January 26th, 2010 at 20:31

  9. MarkUK says:

    Haines got shot – tough. Live by the sword…

    I reckon the sniper as pretty good; it may be easy for him, but that’s because he’s good at what he does. Mind you, a baton round would have sorted the job without the likelihood of a fatal wound.

    January 26th, 2010 at 23:21

  10. bender the robot says:

    baton rounds? you dont take a non-lethal weapon to a gun fight… unless you really like living (and dying) dangerously.

    January 27th, 2010 at 10:16

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