Taking Sides
I saw this video earlier today on the Grauniad website. I watched it again on the Ten’o'clock News on the BBC.
I expect that there were many police officers feeling distinctly uncomfortable in an arse-shifting on chair kind of way as they watched this. The debates have already started on the Police Forums. As can be expected, there are people with very opposing views. I guess it’s hard to see an incident like this and not instantly take sides depending on you personal bias. Police officers are generally posting that the officers on the day were justified in using violence on protestors, non-police are generally saying they overstepped the mark.
If you’ve not seen the footage, go & take a look & see whether you come down on one side or the other, or if you’re going to reserve judgement until after the IPCC investigation.
I suppose the facts of the matter are that a man was pushed by a police officer, fell over & died of a heart attack a few minutes after getting up & walking off. The how, what, where, when & why of it are still to be revealed.
Whatever the result of the investigation, I would not like to be in the shoes of any of the officers present on that video.
You can get the 10-o’clock News version of the film at the BBC News website.
Same Old Faces says:
Mmmm… a difficult one!! He does seem to be walking deliberately slow as if to annoy/obstruct the officers, despite the fact that he is clearly in the middle of a street disturbance. Was he acting as innocently as bystanders have made out?
If that was me on my way home that day, I would have been actively avoiding walking through the middle of such an incident.
In any event it does look over aggresive. Howver, if the post mortem shows he had a long standing heart condition and this was just the ’straw that broke the camels back’, no doubt the anti-police brigade will be yelling injustices from the roof tops.
Of course… no blame will fall on the ‘eco warriors’ (aka Unemployed Yobs) who created such a volitle incident in the first place!!!!
April 7th, 2009 at 10:32 pm
Stuart says:
I wouldn’t say that whether he deserved the push is really what should be discussed – it’s the force used that seems over the top to me. I’m usually pro-police in this type of thing, but for someone who is walking away with their hands in their pockets, a hard 2 handed shove and a baton to the knee is overkill.
It’s probably likely that the increase in pulse rate and blood pressure due to the push is what caused his heart attack, but that’s speculating
April 8th, 2009 at 12:44 am
pffff says:
Same Old Face, these ‘unemployed yobs’ feel so powerless that all they can do is cry out their sadness/anger at the path their ‘leaders’ are choosing for them..
Should they shut up, stay at home, turn on the tv and soldier on in spite of all this injustice that make their hearts cry out ? Or should they uphold their integrity and actually act to try and make society more conform to their moral standards ?
And what do you suggest – getting rid of the right to protest all together ?
I am sad for Ian Tomlison, I am also sad for the officers on that video. I am sad at all this anger.
Why fuel it by using such phrases as ‘eco warriors’ (aka Unemployed Yobs)…??? You’re just totally discrediting yourself here. A bit more discernment and intelligence ???
I felt safe in the crowd on April 1st, just as I felt very safe in the Climate camp last summer. Most are friendly, intelligent, empathizing, and caring people just trying to live better. Go and meet them, come and meet us.
I like people, whatever their job, and, yes, whether or not they are employed. People on all sides are getting angry, your officers, our youth…
But someone in a uniform carrying a baton and doing a job for which they are paid with public money (to which I, like many present on the 1st of April – and contrary to the populist comment above – actively contribute) has a DUTY to contain that anger. This is why there canNOT be any excuse for the action shown on this footage – or indeed similar one that occurred last week.
I have always brought my child to these sort of events – because he is part of the reason I am there – and have always felt safe doing so. I am glad I didn’t do it last week because I I have felt truly scared, not of my fellow protesters, but of the police – who attacked us without any provocation from our part. As many, I am a normally very peaceful person whose anger levels have suddenly shot up due to the unjustified policing ‘techniques’ – some more akin to false imprisonment and assault – I have witnessed. Far from intimidating me into not making my voice heard any more, this is making me want to speak louder.
I understand that the police are only humans trying to do their jobs, i understand the plethoria of feelings they must go through in such situations (although why would anyone want to put themselves in such a situation I can’t actually fathom), i understand the effect fear can have.
I just don’t understand why it was necessary to use such force on people who simply wanted to make their voice heard – and in the case of the climate camp, by actually demonstrating the better world that we are claiming for ourselves and our children.
I’m just so sad…
An Employed ‘eco warrior/yob’ trying to make her grey suburb better for everyone one garden at a time… & curious to see whether her comment will be scrapped.
April 8th, 2009 at 1:16 am
R/T says:
pfff – are you saying that there cannot be an excuse for a Police Officer to push out of the way someone who was clearly deliberately getting in the way and walking deliberately slowly? I’m fairly sure that there would have been a “Come on, mate. Get a move on” type of thing going on here. Seemed a bit odd that he was all on his own at the time/place. Of course, none of us were there, were we?
Was the force reasonable? I think so but then I would wouldn’t I?
I agree with 200, though. Lots of arse-shifting.
April 8th, 2009 at 6:18 am
Dr Melvin T Gray says:
I doubt any member of the public would welcome the actions of Harold Shipman understated as ‘overprescribing a little’.
In preparations for G20, police identification was deliberately removed so that those setting out with the intention of causing trouble and using violence, could do so with anonymity. Rumours of changing room bets leading to further gratuitous violence are also emerging. Ian Tomlinson’s death was the result of much pre planned intention and hype. Attacking him from behind was cowardly, yobbish manslaughter.
All of these terrible things were compounded, if that were possible, by police lies and further cowardice. Reluctance to step forward and come clean – freely admitting the true circumstances, was the only honourable thing left to do. It wasn’t done.
All UK police should feel the shame of what has happened and it would be serious misjudgment to underestimate future effects of ‘overstepping the mark a little’.
April 8th, 2009 at 6:46 am
EmilyT says:
Seems from the short bit of “beforehand” footage that the police there were trying to wave him out the way and saying things as well, though they can’t be heard over the general rabble of noise.
Any sensible person wouldn’t walk that closely to a line of policemen in riot gear if they were “just walking home”. I’m sure that some of the words said would have been to ask him to remove his hands from his pockets as well, as they wouldn’t know whether he was concealing a weapon in the circumstances.
If he was “just walking home” then the force is unreasonable. If he was, as it appears, deliberately not moving out of the way and also not removing his hands from his pockets if requested then that constitutes a perceived threat and so the force is entirely justified.
If the shock of the push or the impact caused him to have a heart attack later then it’s probably more bad luck than anything. If his heart was that unstable then it could have happened if he was playing football and got knocked over.
And this opinion comes from a MOP not a police officer.
April 8th, 2009 at 10:07 am
chairwoman says:
I’m usually very Police minded as my barrister child mainly prosecutes, but that was an extremely angry-looking push.
I was totally in support of the police and against the demonstration generally, what was the point of it, what in God’s name did they actually expect to achieve?
But the police aren’t a rabble roused mob, they are, or certainly should be, professionals expressly trained to deal with those situations, and sorry, all you boys in blue out there, that just looked bad tempered, and whoever said ‘are you sure he was as innocent as people say’ (Ior words to that effect, should be ashamed.
April 8th, 2009 at 11:46 am
fastbecomingcynical says:
I read this blog regularly and very very rarely feel the need to comment. However as a serving officer who is PSU trained (riot trained for MOP readers) i have experienced being in that kind of situation.
Firstly the officers on the ground would not and do not do anything without being expressly told to do so from higher ranked (and paid) officers. (and this includes drawing the baton) If they were told to clear that section of the street that was what they were doing.
As other comments have said the officers are human beings themselves many of which had there leave and rest days cancelled to come in and try to protect innocent people and property during a protest. The vast majority of those protestors were non violent but how do the officers know that when bottles are thrown at them from the ‘faceless’ crowd. Everyone is a threat until proven otherwise. Lets not forget the police deal regularly with people who don’t like them, don’t want to speak to them and would happily kick the living crap out of them if it allowed them to continue what they were doing and if they thought they could get away with it.
It’s a shame the gentleman died (and lets not forget it was officers trying to ressucitate him whilst the protestors felt the best way to get there message across was to throw more bottles at police) but the video only shows a snap shot of the confrontation between him and the police and therefore does not show the full story. If he had been asked repeatedly to move along then the force was fully justified. The baton strike was not repeated or to the head or neck and the palm heel strike (2 handed push) is low on police use of force tactics. The matter should be investigated but i think manslaughter allegations are ridiculous.
Maybe pfff would also be able to answer why so many law abiding peaceful people (!) use there right to protest directly into the faces of the police? Surely if your protesting at climate change and the police turn up then you go and protest where the police are moving you to and don’t stand in the faces directing your protest at the line of police officers carrying big sticks and shields
April 8th, 2009 at 3:38 pm
Gary says:
As a retired officer who was PSU (Riot trained) and faced the rioters of Southall, Brixton and disturbances at Notting Hill I have some sympathy but only in as much as it was clear to me long before the protest date that the issue was being hyped up by the MPD. I can understand how some perhaps younger less experienced officers could take this as a green light for unprofessional behaviour. i have watched the video and to my mind it is clearly an assault. I can not see any justification for that officers action. Bluntly I feel shamed by such behaviour
April 8th, 2009 at 4:01 pm
Same Old Faces says:
A few comments above that I would like to reply too..
pffff.. I accept everyones right to protest ‘peacefully’. Unfortunately history proves that these ‘peaceful’ protests more often than not turn into an excuse for mindless yobs to damage public proprerty and assault police officers. I accept these violent protesters are the minority but until ‘you’ the remaining majority of peaceful protestors can arrange your demonstrations without them ending in such scenes as we observed at the G20, then Im afraid that ‘you’ must also shoulder some of the responsibility for tragic incidents like the death of this man.
In reply to your comment..
“I understand that the police are only humans trying to do their jobs, i understand the plethoria of feelings they must go through in such situations (although why would anyone want to put themselves in such a situation I can’t actually fathom)”
Well isnt it about time that you appreciated the brave officers that do put themselves in these positions and get little or no thanks from anyone!!
In reply to chairwoman..
Im sorry, but I standby my comment “Was he acting as innocently as bystanders have made out?”
We are all forming our opinions on a snapshot of video footage with no audio and no coverage of the moments leading up to the push. How do we know that the male was not kicking at officers sheilds moments before the recording started? Unlikely I know, but my point is we do not know the full facts.
I do agree that looking at that short clip of the push, it looks like it was excessive force. I will however reserve my judgement ‘until’ a full enquiry has been completed. Rest assurred, there will be several public bodies attempting to find anything to prosecute the police officer involved, all from the comfort of their air conditioned offices.
April 8th, 2009 at 4:17 pm
fearthepolice says:
fastbecomingcynical: Bottles? what bottles? Watch the video again. Bottle. Singular. And yet the Met get their story out early, and are again caught with their pants down on the actual facts, but only by an independent photographer.
What the public actually think is that this would have been swept under the carpet, with some mild besmitching on the character of the recently deceased without the video. Remember Jean Charles? That ‘heavy’ jacket, the leaping over the barrier that never took place, or the wires hanging out.
THIS is what the police are coming to represent to the public; This is your reputation that this thug is ruining [if the situation were reversed, does anyone REALLY think that the perp would not end up inside?] I am surprised that you are so sanguine at it’s ruin
April 8th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
CoppersOnOurSide says:
We don’t know all the facts yet. Apparently Mr Tomlinson was trying to get home by his usual route and had been blocked twice already by police. There is talk of witnesses who have seen him being beaten by police prior to the current incident.
But in the end, if a guy who is not part of the demo and who is just walking home ends up dead, and if it proves that the treatment at the hands of the police is to blame, it will be a disgrace.
I feel the basic problem arises because of the mentality displayed by Same Old Faces: if anywhere in a widespread area covered by the demo there are any violent demonstrators, never mind whether they are easily recognizable and pretty much localized and together, everybody in the demo is fair game for a bit of a beating. Doesn’t matter whether you are a minor, a pensioner, neatly dressed or scruffy, clearly prepared for violence or not, behaving calmly or not. Anybody who is not a police officer is fair game.
I’d say that a trained police officer with any experience should be able to see at a glance whether a protester is in the least likely intent on violence. The stupid blanket tactics employed here don’t seem to have left any room for indidivual judgment by officers.
Is it really that hard, when kettling, to have a reinforced opening in a quiet area of the cordon, where people can leave one by one if officers judge they are not going to cause a problem?
No police officer that I know of has as yet offered any plausible explanation why the entirely peaceful Climate Action camp was violently cleared. Why was there no police liaison who indicated a reasonable amount of time in advance that the camp should be cleared? What on earth are these officers thinking?
If the police want the support from the public, they need to recognize that their tactics should allow for much more careful distinction between how they treat violent and peaceful demonstrators.
April 8th, 2009 at 5:37 pm
Same Old Faces says:
Copppersonourside says “I feel the basic problem arises because of the mentality displayed by Same Old Faces”
Can you explain to me how you came to this conclusion? If you read my post properly, I have stated the push looks excessive, but I am not jumping on the anti-police band wagon until the ‘full facts’ are known.
Reading your advice about how demonstrations should be policed have you considered becoming a tactical advisor for the police? Your obvious talent will be wasted if you dont!!
Do you really think the violent protesters will not take advantage of police lines allowing apparently peaceful protesters through? I suggest they will pretend to be innocent before throwing bottles at officers from behind. Im sorry, but if you choose to attend these demonstrations knowing what is likely to occur, then you cant complain about the police clearing your climate camp whilst trying to maintain order.
Your opinion seems to be formed through lovely rose tinted spectacles!!
April 8th, 2009 at 8:28 pm
MarkUK says:
Generally I support the police, but in this instance I can’t.
However slowly he may have been walking, Mr Tomlinson did not qualify for a baton strike and further violence from police officers. He was not acting in a violent way, even if (as has been stated but not proven) he was walking too slowly. If he was obstructing the police, he should have been arrested not assaulted.
I can understand how hw felt, being obstructed on his way home from work by police officers. I can also understand why the police MAY have needed to close the street he wanted to use.
Simply being p***ed off with the police does not allow a police officer to use violence. Neither does it allow a superior to ignore the attack.
This needs a really deep enquiry.
April 8th, 2009 at 8:42 pm
Jimbob says:
Officer presence – failed
Tactical communication – failed
What’s next on the list? To me it involves physical contact. Mr Tomlinson, for reasons he took to the grave with him, chose to walk that path. He chose to walk slowly in front of an advancing police line with shields and dogs at the ready. Any normal thinking human being would avoid being in such a situation and if by chance they stumbled into it they would move quickly to get out of it.
The discretion someone above says they’d like to see with officers using judgement to decide on a quick glance if someone is naughty or someone is nice just isn’t realistic for a public order situation. There was no option just to let Tomlinson filter through the police line.
A single baton strike followed by a palm heel strike seems hard but then can the officers afford to get into subtle pushes etc? Especially if the subject has already ignored verbal commands? With a couple of police dogs in such close proximity the heavy shove may actually have prevented him inadvertently stumbling into some sharp jaws.
Any death is sad. The inquiry is necessary. But it should be allowed to run its course without people conducting a trial by media based on a short piece of footage out of context.
April 8th, 2009 at 11:24 pm
Geoorge says:
If that had been a member of the public
caught on video doing that,
then that member of the public
would have been already arrested
and would probably have been remanded in custody
pending appropriateness of charge and venue of trial.
But the attacker in this case,
(with his deliberately obscured shoulder number)
has only been “suspended from duty”
and is still free to walk the streets
with his unduly violent attitude.
Why hasn’t the perpetrator in this case been treated as a perperator who was member of the public would have been treated had a police officer been the victim of such a vicious and inappropriate assault?
Or is that the point?
George
P.S It was a bit like a replay of the start of the WA case
[your post 2009-03-15] with totally OTT gungho and thoughtless police action. Fortunately no-one has died in the WA case, yet.
April 10th, 2009 at 3:30 pm
200 says:
Geoorge,
why do you always lay ou your points like they are some kind of poem?
April 10th, 2009 at 4:12 pm
ed says:
fastbecomingcynical says:
“and lets not forget it was officers trying to ressucitate him whilst the protestors felt the best way to get there message across was to throw more bottles at police”
lies coming from the police again.
it would be one thing if he’d died and the police had told the truth and investigated properly from the off and, god forbid, the officer that attacked him coming forward straight away.
but no. they’ve lied and the ipcc have fucked up including tell journlists to leave the story. and have only been caught out when there is overwelming evidence.
the police as a whole have failed massively over this.
April 14th, 2009 at 8:18 pm
Geeorge says:
“…some kind of poem”
Is it difficult to read?
(Could be to do with my screen.)
George
April 15th, 2009 at 5:45 am
200 says:
Geeorge,
not difficult to read, it’s just your line breaks are strange like it’s phrased as a poem, bit odd, that’s all.
April 15th, 2009 at 10:12 am